Where will Joe go?
With last night’s dismissal at the hands of the Cleveland Indians, the firing of Joe Torre after twelve years as manager of the New York Yankees is all but guaranteed. However heartbroken Torre may be at leaving the only job he’s had for over the past decade, he should pause and take note of the silver lining present in his firing. By being relieved of his managerial duties in the Bronx, Torre is given a chance to prove that he is a good manager.
What’s that you say? How dare I say that Torre isn’t a good manager! Why, he’s one of the best there ever was! Reached the postseason all twelve years with the Yankees! Won four World Series in his first five!
And hasn’t won another one in the seven years since.
The fact remains that prior to joining the helm of the Yankees’, Torre was at best a mediocre manager. With a .405 winning percentage in five years as manager of the New York Mets in the late 70s/ early 80s, Torre got darned near ran out of town by the same city that would welcome him as a prodigal son a decade and a half later. Torre then managed the Atlanta Braves for three years, capturing a division title in 1982 only to be ingloriously swept by the St. Louis Cardinals in a three game league championship series. He then took a sabbatical from managing for six years, serving a spell as a broadcaster for the California Angels, before resurfacing to take the reins of the same Cardinals in mid-1990. After six rather unspectacular seasons and a .498 winning percentage in St. Louis, Torre was hired by George Steinbrenner to fill the spot vacated by the fired Buck Showalter, who had just come off a dramatic three-game collapse to the Seattle Mariners in the 1995 Division Series, otherwise known as the Greatest Playoff Series of All Time.
So we all know what happened next. The World Series titles. The 116-win 1998 season. The American Express commercials. Being played by Paul Sorvino in “Curveballs Along the Way: The Joe Torre Story.” The twelve straight postseason appearances. And now this, this inglorious conclusion, getting knocked out of the playoffs for the third straight season, this time at the hands of the Cleveland Indians.
So why do I think he’s not that great a manager, or not nearly as great as everyone thinks he is? Um, have you paid attention to the Yankees teams of the past decade? Borat’s retarded brother Bilo could’ve won managing the Yankee team from the late 1990s. They may be singularly the greatest collection of talent ever compiled by a major league baseball team: Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera all excelled at the position in their league. The Yankees were also helped by role players and players past their prime who stepped up to deliver clutch performances: Scott Brosius, Paul O’Neill, Dwight Gooden, Daryl Strawberry, Cecil Fielder. The Yankees became recognized as the team to go to for veterans looking to add a World Series in to their trophy case, and when that connection was made, that was exaclty when the Yankees were unable to win despite their heavy talented veteran presence. Look at the players that made their trek to the Big Apple to “win it all” but couldn’t: Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Alex Rodriguez. Torre couldn’t win with these guys in the line-up? My doubts about Joe Torre’s supposed “greatness” is justified.
I’m not meaning this to be a criticism of the guy. By all indications, he seems a likable, affable fellow. With the outsized egos he’s had to deal with over the past 12 years, the fact that he’s been able to manage them and deftly lead them to an annual postseason berth is a testament to his abilities. But perhaps the Boss is justified in letting Torre go, even if he did it in perhaps the most classless move he possibly could over this past weekend when he announced Torre’s imminent dismissal if the Yankees failed to win to The Bergen Record in New Jersey. I’m actually surprised that Torre’s managed to survive the Yankees’ 2003 World Series loss to the Florida Marlins, given Steinbrenner’s demand for immediate satisfaction.
But these are the conditions that it appears Torre’s connections with the Yankees has been severed. And with it comes the opportunity for Torre to prove that it was him as the strategist that made those legendary winning teams ten year ago, rather than the aggregate of the talent on the team. If I was Torre, I’d leap at the opportunity to leave the Yankees in my rear-view mirror and seek pastures with a team that has had recent struggles, but intent on righting their ship. Especially with a collection of young talent to mold into winners. The Pittsburgh Pirates- who have recently dismissed manager Jim Tracy- come to mind, with their talented young pitching staff and offense led by Adam LaRoche, Freddy Sanchez, and Xavier Nady, with Jason Bay, who had an off season in 2007, also on board. Or perhaps Torre would like to stay in the American League and fill Buddy Bell’s spot as manager of the Kansas City Royals, who may have a trio of the finest young hitters in the league in Billy Butler, Alex Gordon, and mark Teahen, not to mention a developing pitching staff led by Brian Bannister and Luke Hochevar.
Or perhaps he’ll go retire and play golf somewhere. Where will Joe go?
Torre has four World Series rings. He has nothing else left to prove with the New York Yankees. But if he can lead the Pirates or the Royals to the promised land, then his claim as one of the best managers of all time would not be questioned.
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Sparkey Anderson couldn’t lead those butt ass teams to a winning record. Sometimes the toughest jobs are leading the teams (especially in NY) that are supposed to win to WS championships. Just ask Tony LaRussa about that one.
Joe Torre is a Hall of Famer, like it or not.
You mention LaRussa. Who managed three teams, bringing all three to first-place finishes and two to World Series championships. Joe Torre may be a Hall of Famer, but just as perhaps one of the most overrated managers in history, due to the fact that if wasn’t lucky enough to manage the Yankees when he did, he’d be along the same lines of Jim Riggleman or Jeff Torborg…
LaRussa is in another league, I agree. You have to do it in a couple of towns, and you have to do it with a middle of the road salary in my book.
Torre’s is more like the first half of Phil Jackson’s career, but not quite as successful. And obviously baseball and basketball are very different games on the field, but I think that the matching component is that they are both very skilled at managing egos — those of management, players and their own.
In his favor, I’ll submit that nobody won the Series in NY from 1979-1995, an incredible stretch when you consider how loaded some of those clubs were. Would you say that the lineups from ‘85-’86 lack the talent of the championship clubs?
C – Wynegar/Hassey
1b- Mattingly
2b- Randolph
SS- Meachum
3b- Pagliarulo
OF-Winfield
OF-Henderson
OF-Griffey/Pasqua
DH-Baylor/Easler
Not to mention the assortment of Ron Kittle/Claudell Washington-types that the Yanks outbid competitors for. What team of the time wouldn’t have traded their best four players for Winfield, Henderson, Mattingly and Randolph?
SP- Guidry, Rassmussen, both Niekros, Tewksbury, Whitson, Drabek, John
RP- Righetti, Holland, Scurry, Stoddard, Shirley
Most of these pitchers would have great years either before, after or during their Yankee years (Rassmussen won 18 games in ‘86), but for the most part, not while they were in NY. Especially mercenary types like Whitson and Andy Hawkins always seemed to fail in NY after exceptional seasons elsewhere.
These teams, and most of the Yankee teams of the period, were loaded with talent that always seemed to underperform, and always came up short.
I think that’s Torre’s Yankee legacy — He made great players play great. And he kept a lid on the Boss. Perhaps age will do the same to the boss now.
Torre’s failure this year was easy to see coming, because it wasn’t his, it was Cashman’s. There was no way this staff was going to win the WS this year. On the other hand, Cashman has accumulated some great young talent for the future. Very curious to see which of the stack of free agents end up departing. The Yanks don’t do youth movements, but the next 2-3 years will mean a new cast in the Bronx, one way or another.
I had no idea Tewksbury played for the Yankees.
The latest issue of “Sports Weekly” details that the future of the Yankees involves, indeed, a youth movement. Especially pitching-wise. Somehow the Yankees are loaded with young arms- that young staff should be the envy of baseball. Do the M’s have a couple hitting prospects to offer in exchange for Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy?
And it’s not as if this system can’t develop prospects, they just trade them away for veterans who do little more than add a financial burden on the team. Examples include Ted Lilly and Marcus Thames.
You make a strong argument that Torre helped make great players play great. But on the flip side, what failed him in that department the past seven years? Their inability to step up collectively as a team makes me doubt that claim. I’ve of a mind that if La Russa were to step in with this roster he would immediately win a World Series- and that would show the big differences between the two managers.
How to Fix the Yankees
By Mark Starr
Newsweek
Updated: 3:28 p.m. PT Oct 10, 2007
Oct. 11, 2007 – Don’t weep for Joe Torre, America. He has had an extraordinary successful tenure—a dozen years, every one in the playoffs, with four World Series titles and six American League championships—that could land him a spot in Cooperstown. And since there is no shortage of teams that could use a class act and a steady hand, Torre can almost certainly quickly land another managerial gig.
Still, it seems clear that after three consecutive first-round exits in the postseason Torre’s time with the Yankees has run its course. Despite the vulgar way George Steinbrenner goes about his business—in this case with a gratuitous ultimatum—most Yankee fans will welcome a managerial change, if with a tinge of sadness.
And so might Torre, though he seems incapable of admitting it. All these years in what remains—even as sportswriters write about the mellowing of the Boss—“the Bronx Zoo” have clearly taken a toll on him. Managing the Yankees may be the only job that ages you faster than the American presidency. Through much of this past season Torre appeared numb and, at times, soporific, incapable of summoning up the requisite emotions on those occasions when they might be useful in energizing his team.
Still, Steinbrenner, with his continued faith in the equation that payroll equals championship, is sadly out of touch. That formula is no longer guaranteed in baseball’s new millennium, as seven different champions in the last seven years attest. Other teams with big payrolls—the Mets and Dodgers this year, the Red Sox and Angels last year—have failed to make the playoffs. Torre’s perfect record in reaching the playoffs with the Yankees should not be regarded as the inevitable outcome of the team’s high salaries but as a credit to how he managed, despite ample distractions, to keep his team’s eye on the prize.
Now, even as the playoffs move on without New York, and New York almost certainly moves on without Torre, the Yankee story will be fascinating. The team faces huge decisions beyond who will be its dugout leader next year. Two of New York’s longest-serving stars, Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada, are free agents, and the team has a $16 million option on outfielder Bobby Abreu, who put up very good numbers after a wretched first half that helped bury the team behind the Red Sox in the A.L. East. An even bigger decision looms for Alex Rodriguez, a shoo-in for American League MVP but a postseason bust in all four of his years in New York. A-Rod can opt out of the last three years of his 10-year, $250 million deal. Finally, the Yankees’ most reliable big-game pitcher, Andy Pettitte, can also leave.
A primer on the Yankees past and a prescription for the team’s future:
Sentimental Journey: For all the Boss’s bluster, the Yankees are the last team in Major League Baseball to traffick in sentimentality. They cling tenaciously to the past (exemplified by Bernie Williams’s too-long tenure) because the team can afford that luxury and has been slow to recognize that it has come at the expense of the future. Now we’ll see if they’ve learned anything. The Yankees pretty much have to sign Jorge Posada, even though he’s 36, as first-rank catchers are so rare. But unless the fading Rivera is willing to sign a one-year deal, which is unlikely, it’s time to bid goodbye to the greatest closer in the history of the game. Plenty of pitchers can close (surely the Yankees noticed Cleveland journeyman Joe Borowski closing them out of the playoffs), and Joba Chamberlain may soon be ready to become a dominant closer to rival Boston’s Jonathan Papelbon.
True Grit: The Yankees champions of Torre’s early years couldn’t match up with the most recent teams’ array of superstars, but they boasted players like Paul O’Neill, Scott Brosius and Joe Girardi, whose hard-nosed baseball produced big-time results. The current incarnation has a grit deficit.
Captain Jeter: Derek Jeter’s captaincy has been earned on the field, and one disappointing series does nothing to diminish his reputation as one of baseball’s greatest big-game performers. Still, he leads only by example and is too nice a guy to kick some of the butt that Torre was already stroking. Jeter’s not the man to jolt the Yankees out of their lethargy; someone else must step up.
Division Winners: The Yankees, with a lineup loaded from top to bottom, were supposedly built to win championships. But in reality they were built to win division titles. Great hitting mashes those mediocre starters from Tampa Bay, Baltimore and Kansas City. But come playoff time it tends to be pitching that prevails, even against the mightiest lineups. As a team the Yankees hit .228, .246 and .253 in their past three playoff series. Repeat after me: pitching trumps hitting in the postseason.
Starting Pitching: The Yankees’ starting pitching simply hasn’t measured up to that of its rivals in each of the last three playoffs. Which is odd because the team has the money to pretty much land every pitcher it has pursued, some of whom the Red Sox also coveted. The Yankees were either bad judges of talent or they were unlucky. Perhaps both. But these big-money acquisitions have either been total flops or at least significant disappointments.
Bullpen: This is one area in which Torre will not be missed. The Yankee manager would go to the well far too often with whichever reliever he deemed reliable at the time, and team management and fans alike fear Chamberlain’s mighty arm would surely be ruined by next August if Torre were still making the bullpen calls. Of course, that’s one more hidden cost of the pressure to win the division every year. Torre wound up treating every game as if it were a must-win situation. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose with your less-than-best in May so that your best can do their job come October.
Farm System: Working with Steinbrenner’s win-now mandate, the Yankees have been unable to develop a farm system that produces young talent. Indeed, they pretty much stripped it bare, trading for short-term fixes and overpriced and often overrated veterans. That approach is finally changing. Next year should see Chamberlain, Philip Hughes and Ian Kennedy all taking key roles, with more pitching in the pipeline.
Show A-Rod the Door: Sure, it’s his choice, but the Yankees could certainly give him a nudge. He did put up huge numbers, but the Yankees didn’t need all of them. It’s kind of like they used to say about Mr. Cub, Ernie Banks, after back-to-back MVP seasons in ’58 and ’59, when the Cubs finished sixth both seasons. Couldn’t they have finished sixth without him? A-Rod is the modern equivalent, an MVP who can’t propel his team out of the first round of the playoffs. And I bet they could get that far without him. Say goodbye, put Wilson Betemit at third base, make infield defense a priority (that means no more Giambi at first) and spend A-Rod’s money shoring up the pitching staff. While Steinbrenner might not be able to handle it, sophisticated Yankee fans would likely tolerate a year on the outside of the playoffs if they sensed the team was building the nucleus of a new champion.
League Championship Predictions: I hope somebody noted that I went four for four in the first round though, frankly, I thought the picks were pretty easy. Not so this round, which should produce—and TBS and Fox pray it does—some more competitive series.
Colorado Rockies vs. Arizona Diamondbacks: Never bet on a streak to end. The Rockies have been playing with playoff pressure since mid-September. And they rolled over a Phillies team that was almost as hot down the stretch. These two teams could be called the anti-Yankees, homegrown and filled with young talent. Still, I find it hard to believe in a team that hit .250 and, as the Diamondbacks do, relies on A.L. castoffs like Eric Brynes and Tony Clark for significant hitting contributions. Matt Holliday and Todd Helton, however have no trouble convincing me. And the Rockies have other guys, like Troy Tulowitzki, Brad Hawpe and Garret Atkins, who are swinging hot bats. Pitching usually rules, but the weak Arizona bats will make Colorado pitching come up aces. Rockies in seven.
Cleveland Indians vs. Boston Red Sox: These are two pretty comparable teams that produced identical records. Both have three hitting stars and a lineup that is more pesky than powerhouse. But all the key matchups seem to favor the Red Sox. Travis Hafner and Victor Martinez vs. David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez in the middle of the lineup: Hafner and Martinez are formidable, but Ortiz and Ramirez are all-timers and on fire. C.C. Sabathia and Fausto Carmona vs. Josh Beckett and Curt Schilling as 1-2 starters: Sabathia and Carmona are nasty, certainly possessing better stuff than the aging Schilling. But Beckett has already won a World Series seventh game, and Schilling has the best postseason winning percentage in history. Joe Borowski vs. Jonathan Papelbon as closer: no contest! Borowski led the league in saves but, remarkably, with an ERA over 5.00, about three times higher than that of the Red Sox star. Throw in the home-field advantage and Boston wins in six.
Oh, here’s the link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21228671/site/newsweek/
“Grit deficit”- that sums up exactly what I was trying to say about the Yankees teams that ultimately came up short under Joe Torre that past seven years. On second though, I don’t think Torre made great players play great, he made good players play great. And then great players started getting on board, thinking they could jsut dial it in and waltz into a championship. In fact, I’d argue that the presence of Torre in the opposing dugout had more of an influence on the opposing team- creating an incentive for good players on the other side to step up and play great to beat the Yankees. That’s why his time is up and he has to go.
Anyway, good post, but can we pay attention to how awesome the Indians are? And could you post that in the main blog, or did you just want to post it here?
[...] the fact remains, the relationship between Joe Torre and the New York Yankees had gone sour, and as I noted a couple of weeks back, it is actually to Joe’s benefit to walk away from the Yankees and seeker pastures elsewhere. [...]
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